SDIM24 - Innovation for Decarbonization: Industry's Transition

Sadaf Hosseini: Hello and welcome back to the Sustainable Development Impact Meetings hosted by the World Economic Forum. I'm Sadaf Hosseini and I have the pleasure of hosting today's session on Innovation for Decarbonization: Industry's Transition. We are coming to you from New York City.

Today's focus of our conversation is on a key challenge in tackling the climate crisis, and that is decarbonizing the hard to abate sectors which are so crucial to the global economy. According to the Forum's Net-zero Industry Tracker, 2023, industrial sectors across production and energy are responsible for more than 30% of global greenhouse gas emissions. Right now, none of these sectors are on track to hit their net-zero targets by 2050.

Yes, we have seen some progress in reducing emissions thanks to regulations, innovative financing and technologies like renewable energy. Also, the fact that companies now have set net-zero targets is a good sign. But overall, this is not enough and we are moving far too slowly to meet our net-zero goals in a timely manner.

So it's obvious that to get to net-zero, not only we need to act faster, but also we need to put our efforts where it would make a difference. We need to improve energy and material efficiency, use low-carbon fuels and scale up near-zero emission technologies. Innovations like carbon capture and sustainable sourcing of minerals are going to be key.

At the same time, this will not be possible without governments, public-private partnerships and global cooperation to lead the change. The International Energy Agency tells us that 50% of the emissions reductions we need to reach net zero by 2050 must come from technologies that are either in development or not yet commercially viable at scale.

So, today we are going to dive into what the industry is doing now and what we need to do to really accelerate this change. And because of the importance of technological innovations, we would like to put a spotlight on those who are behind these innovation-driven transformation.

I'm excited to introduce our panel who will help us understand all of this. Let me introduce our speakers for today.

First, we have Melissa Lott, a professor at Columbia University's Climate School. She is going to give us an overview of where we are with the industry progress toward net zero. Welcome, Melissa. Thank you for joining us. Next, I have Vivek Salgaocar, Director of Vimson Group and Founder of Prospect Innovation. He's an industry leader who has a proven track record of supporting early stage innovations and startups in this space. Good to have you back with us. And finally, we have Barinder Rasode, CEO and Co-Founder of Tersa Earth. Her company is tackling the challenge of metals and mining waste by providing early solutions to help decarbonize the sector. Thank you Barinder for joining us.

So here I would like to start with you, Melissa, if that's okay. Can you set the stage for us and tell us how we are doing in terms of meeting the net-zero goals that we have put for ourselves, for the heart of sectors like heavy industries?

Melissa Lott: Yes. When it comes to getting to net zero period, you set up the stage when it comes to, we understand what climate change is doing to our health and our communities. We know we need to move faster, but we're not yet moving at that speed and scale that we need to to protect the health of our communities and to protect our future.

So what do we do to speed that up? And when it comes to these harder to abate sectors, which is now a controversial term actually in my industry, because it's saying, is it harder? Is it just that we don't have the right incentives in place to make this happen? We've got two things going on. One, how do you reduce direct emissions from those different types of industry, but also how do you make sure that you are setting up the industry we need for the future because we can't decarbonize electricity if we don't have all the different pieces of equipment that we need, that would have to be manufactured somewhere. And when you go back in the supply chain, we're talking about mining raw materials. We're not talking about a system where we don't have to build a lot of stuff. Getting to net zero is actually about building a lot very quickly.

So we're moving, we're seeing some really inspiring, different changes happening, but it's not nearly the speed and scale that we need to protect our health and protect our environment.

Sadaf Hosseini: Very clear. And can you give us some examples and actions that industries such as aviation or manufacturing can take to continue decarbonizing in a time, in a timely manner? So in the timeline that we actually have set for ourselves.

Melissa Lott: Well, this is, as many of my colleagues in the economics departments and businesses departments like to talk about, it's supply and demand dynamics going on.

So when it comes to companies, you've got producers and consumers within that. So when you talk about aviation, you have the folks building the planes, you have the folks supplying the fuels, and you have the folks who are using them. And so how do you set up a "if you build it, we will buy it", "if you build it, we will use it" and set up a system in which, okay, there's an incentive to move quickly and to invest quickly in the technologies that are needed in the future.

There's also a cultural shift that is happening, though, that I will say. And I see this in many of the mining companies that I engage with and many of the manufacturing companies I engage with. Which is, okay, we have certain margins, certain risk tolerances, how do we step into new technologies quickly at the speed we need to actually address climate change, which we are invested in, and protect our companies, which we realize we need to if we want to be part of the future of our industries. But also not get too far out over our skis and end up tumbling over the tips.

Sadaf Hosseini: Very good. Thank you for that because this shift of the mindset is actually one of the key elements here.

You also mentioned very briefly how critical the role of metals and minerals are for the energy transition. And, according to the World Bank, by 2050, 3 billion tons of metals will be needed. And if you think about it from the scale perspective, we need to up our production to 500% more by then. So this shows the critical role of mining sector in this in this area.

And Vivek, I would love to come to you actually, you are an industry leader in this space, coming from a family who has worked in the mining sector, you know, for the last 70 years. Could you share with us how you have seen the mining sector progressing in the decarbonization effort?

Vivek Salgaocar: Sure, thanks. And I think one thing to to keep in mind is that in order to extract the materials that we that we need to meet these goals that we have set ourselves, there cannot be just one approach or one silver bullet, right. So the issue is as much geological, as it is environmental, as it is regulatory, as it is technological, right.

So there's several ways in which the issue can be tackled and has to be tackled because there's not going to be just one approach that's going to win. It has to be a collaborative effort. What I've seen with the mining industry is that there has been a significant increase in the conversations and actions around technological innovation and adoption. Which has been tremendous because as an industry we've been known to be fairly slow moving, but that's rapidly changing and that's a hugely positive sign.

What we do within our company is that, you know, we saw that it was not only a requirement but also a duty and an opportunity to actually look at innovation as something that would really change the industry in a significant way. And so with Prospect Innovation, what we do is we look at the very early stages of innovation. Because ultimately, if you don't support technologists, entrepreneurs, startups at the very, very early stages, you're not really going to get anything that can then become commercially viable. Because what happens oftentimes is, because of the scale of, not just the industry but the individual companies within the industry itself, nothing really below a certain amount really gets much attention because it's a drop in the bucket given the scale.

However, that's, I would argue, probably the most important bit that needs attention because that's what becomes this kind of funnel towards getting to much larger solutions that can then be deployed at scale globally. Which ultimately not just gets us to the energy transition and net zero, but also reduces a lot of the geopolitical tensions that you're seeing today because it would reduce where you would have to look for some of these materials because they would actually be available at a cheaper price, actually, at a place that's perhaps friendly, perhaps within, you know, your own national borders, which ultimately then also reduces the amount you need in terms of emissions for transportation such as shipping, et cetera.

So, it's a multi-pronged approach. But the great news is, is that the industry has realized it and I think it's moving in the right direction.

Sadaf Hosseini: Thank you for that. So the role of innovation and let's say early stage solution is one of the key factors that you are looking at from the industry perspective.

So that's the best way to come to you, Barinder. First of all, congratulations for becoming one of our Uplink Top Innovators through the latest challenge that we had on sustainable mining in collaboration with UpLink and Prospect Innovation.

So Tersa Earth is working on recovering metals from mining waste. Can you tell us a little bit more about your solution and what that means for the industry from the mining perspective?

Barinder Rasode: Well, first of all, I would like to thank our team at Tersa Earth. I would also like to thank the World Economic Forum and UpLink, and Vivek and Prospect Innovators, because this is really what matters is bringing people together within an ecosystem where they are supportive, picking up on your events and comments.

And I think one of the things that's really important is recognizing that we have these targets. But in order to meet these targets, we actually need more metals. So there is a $3.4 trillion opportunity in waste that collectively we can turn into an opportunity. And what we're able to do at Tersa Earth is create a sustainability solution that actually generates, not only revenue for the mining companies, but gives great comfort to the communities that those ARD tailing ponds are in and then supports government to be able to freely, and in a faster way, support mining companies because now there is no social license.

So what innovations like ours does, it creates an opportunity for us collectively to solve, not only the problems of the past, but also create an opportunity where we can make sure that we're no longer repeating the problems and doing things the same way. And so that's really important.

And I think, you know, we've talked a bit about partnership between government, industry, finance, but also First Nations. We have a very important relationship with Yinka First Nations – Reg Ogen is committed to making sure that his community is using the ways of the past. So Tersa Earth has a solution that uses nature's way to heal and create opportunities from waste.

Melissa Lott: There's a really important point here, that I think is, when we look at our energy systems, it's just one part of it, not all the climate solutions but our past to our future. We're talking about a paradigm shift where we're going from burning something and it doesn't come back to us as useful anything, at least not in the timescale that I recognize in my life, to a place where we're using increasing amounts of metals. But if we do it well and do it efficiently and recover things from waste, also recycle in that system, we can create a system that is actually largely closed.

And so you said don't repeat the past mistakes we made or the past negative impacts. There's a massive opportunity to do that within the transition. It is a paradigm shift within all this, and I just love that you're highlighting.

Barinder Rasode: And totally, it's a paradigm shift that makes everybody feel like they're contributing and nobody feels vulnerable. Politicians aren't going to get canceled. Mining companies aren't under pressure to, you know, do things differently that aren't sustainable to them and to the communities that that waste is in.

So it is about making sure, what you guys have created here is an ecosystem where people don't feel vulnerable and they can be bold in solutions.

Sadaf Hosseini: Absolutely. Thank you for coming in, Melissa. I think that's a very important point. And also, I love the fact that you spoke about the importance of the ecosystems, you know, and building on that one.

Can you also share with us a couple of tangible impacts that you foresee Tersa Earth is bringing to the table and specific improvements or benefits for the sector?

Barinder Rasode: Yeah, we have a very robust modular design that is flow based. And it's scalable, it fits into the size of a shipping container at the tail end of a mines process, so either currently operating mines or decommissioned mines. For the technicians who innovation innovators go to and say, oh we have a new idea, imagine how they feel. They've invested money in processes. So we fit at the tail end.

Our microbial fuel cell generates enough of a current to extract the metals. Our MICP is able to extract metals and neutralize waste. So what you're left with is neutralized water that can be recycled by the mine. We extract valuable metals for revenue and then we're able to reduce carbon because not only do we not use lime, we're doing experiments where we're teaching our patented bugs to eat the carbon and the byproduct is a carbonate that can be used for fertilizer.

And then the biggest thing of all for communities and government is we're reducing the liability that either mining companies or governments hold on their books. And, you know, we're integrating a solution that is a waste remediation solution, not just mining, and AI. So we've collected over 55 million data points in our lab that nobody right now has access to. But imagine what we can do with the incorporation of waste remediation and AI.

Sadaf Hosseini: That's the super because data is the currency basically that we are working with. I think this is super interesting because you are one of the solutions that we have seen coming through, right.

And I would like to come back to you Vivek because you have been very much in the trenches of working with us and looking at the innovations and solutions for the last challenge that we have put together. Can you speak about, you know, either you have some more comments, you know, on Tersa Earth, but also other innovations and technologies that you have been very excited seeing coming through?

Vivek Salgaocar: Sure, absolutely. I think one of the things that we were most excited and impressed by was the number of applications, but the quality of applications as well.

So when we started this partnership, one of the things that we wanted to do was to raise the profile of the importance and raise the profile of the opportunity, so that we could get the maximum number of people to actually apply. Because one of the main insights that we had with the work that we were doing at Prospect was that these solutions do exist. They just perhaps don't know the problem that exists within mining to match those solutions to, right. So it was that product market fit that was kind of lacking.

And what we thought was that, you know, by actually raising the profile and getting in front of as many eyeballs as possible, we could actually then get the best and the brightest to actually tackle mining problems. And fortunately, that's exactly what has happened. Perhaps to a greater degree than what we were we were expecting. And so whether it's solutions amongst, you know, the cohort that Barinder and Tersa were a part of that actually look at eliminating smelting, for instance, is one solution, to eliminating waste is another.

Bio-mining is a huge theme that has been talked about of course by Barinder. But if you look at the past several years syn-bio or synthetic biology has been seen as kind of this moonshot type possibility, right? Where there was a lot of work being done, a lot of money being spent, but it was expected that it would take a lot longer to actually get to commercialization and deployment. I think that timeline has been greatly shortened, which is very, very, very heartening and also shows the power of technology and and innovation really.

Beyond that, so the first challenge was focus on energy efficiency in mining and how to improve that. And so we've seen a lot of solutions that look at alternative sources of energy and replacing chemicals, for instance, in another instance. And overall, to see how throughout the process we could actually reduce the emissions by reducing the amount of energy that that we consume. The idea being that, since it was the first challenge, we wanted it to be as broad as possible to attract the maximum number of people. And then, as we go on – and we'll talk about the next challenge in a little bit – we wanted to then slowly narrow it down to more specific issues.

And so, what we've seen is that, when you say energy efficiency, it means many things to many people. But ultimately there's so many different parts to the mining process that it's extremely important that every single one of those people actually sends in something. Because it's not, you know, one solution that's going to tackle every single part of that process.

So that's the most exciting is that we saw so many different high-quality solutions that came through. And truly, you know, choosing from such a high caliber pool of applicants was was a very difficult problem, but a very high-quality problem to have.

Sadaf Hossein: Very nice. I remember our first conversations was about how could we get entrepreneurs excited about the mining industry? And I think one of the role that you have been trying to play here is really shifting the perception. There is an opportunity at hand and how we can bring the startups from other industries really to this aspect.

I would like to also go back to one of the earlier points that you, you mentioned, Vivek. That we know mining industry has often been slow to adopt the new technologies and also the proven ones – it takes a bit of time to, again, pick it up and really go to scale. Despite this, in the last couple of years, we also have seen an increase in the investment in critical minerals development by 20 to 30%. So showcases the appetite and also is a great signal.

So for that, I would like to again come back to you again Barinder as an entrepreneur in this space: What are the type of challenges you are facing, you know, as an entrepreneur in this sector?

Barinder Rasode: Well, it's very interesting when you look at the opportunity, you think it just makes sense. We have a very critical problem here. And here's a solution. And it's not just us. There are other companies that we should be co-developing with to clean the sludge, to stabilize the soil, to deal with all of the problems.

The challenge is, of course, capital. Last couple of years was very challenging with the interest rates going up. It is harder to raise money as a woman. That is a statistic that's quite loud. And then people want to invest in your company. They want it to be de-risked and scaled and commercialized, but they don't want to pay the price for something that is fundamentally going to not only create such benefit, but create such wealth. And so there's that, that, there's that disconnect.

And then it's, any, there's no opportunity until we became aware of this where people are encouraged to co-develop and work together and not hoard either their opportunity or their IP because like you said, Vivek, no one company is going to be able to tackle this alone. And so funds ecosystem and then strategic partnerships. So mining companies, I don't think, are adverse to innovation, I think they're adverse to liability and risk. So how do you de-risk this for them? For them to say to too few startups, come in here and we'll work with you?

And so those are the three challenges that we have definitely faced. And then it's getting the people who have invested their lives in mining, who don't understand the science behind different tech. And so mining companies go to those people to say, Hey, what do you think? And I think it's because they haven't had an opportunity to understand it more, where they say, we don't think this is going to work, which is not the case, right?

Sadaf Hosseini: Absolutely.

Barinder Rasode: It's the proper tech assessment.

Sadaf Hosseini: Absolutely. Very, very interesting. I think you clearly put it out there in terms of the challenges that you're facing.

And I think I would like to, if you can go a little bit further in terms of what type of initiatives or let's say support, do you need from other stakeholders in this space? Because you specifically also talk about ecosystem and collaboration, et cetera, But what else from that perspective we can ask for?

Barinder Rasode: Well, I'd like to touch more on the co-development piece and the working with community piece, which is really important, right? We can't forget who we're serving here. Here we're serving communities. We're serving First Nations. We are serving young people who want to get into STEM – less and less people are going into the engineering fields. So really, I know of people who work in very great occupations in the resource sector who won't even talk about what they do for work at Christmas parties anymore. So I think there's a stigma that also keeps people from being excited about supporting mining companies.

And, like you said, we actually need more and more metals. And as we're setting, politicians – and I used to be one, so I understand why we do the things we do, not always the best – setting targets that we know we will probably never meet, but they're actually creating more of a demand.

So there's the stigma and then there's the misunderstanding. And I think then there is this fear. We compete. So we did compete for the competition right. But where we don't, we no longer have, it's not it's not a competing, but it's a coming together and seeing what companies can put something together on a project. Maybe that's what we do for the next one.

Sadaf Hosseini: I love that. I love the, you know, the spark of basically thinking ahead on what can be done in that space.

Vivek Salgaocar: But just, just, for just one more thing, I think on the topic of, of collaboration, right? Because ultimately, what's interesting, well this as good news and bad news. And so the bad news is that, yes, you are right that mining companies are slow to move. The good news is that that means everyone's at that same slow pace, right. Which means everyone's problems are more or less the same. Regardless of where you're mining, if you're mining the same thing, you're probably doing it in a similar way, which hasn't changed in a while, by the way. And so therefore you can actually collaborate because you're solving for the same thing. And given the fact that demand is increasing, you're not necessarily competing with each other because you both actually or whoever, you know, or whoever the parties are that are collaborating, are going to have that that that that demand there so that you can you can supply that without having to kind of undercut one another or cut each other out.

So there is all of those tailwinds that can actually promote that collaboration. And I think that is happening more and more through platforms such as this. But of course there's never enough, right, because there's the problem at hand or the issue at hand is so massive that we need so much more. And we're going to need so much more, even if what we're doing now is sort of doubled and tripled.

Sadaf Hosseini: Absolutely. No, that's actually is a very important part of the conversation because there is a demand, right. And some of it is by the industry, but some of it is also through the incentives that the governments are actually putting together. And that is where I would love to come to you, Melissa, on that one.

You have worked very closely with a lot of decision makers in this space, and especially when it comes to the energy systems and the impact of that for the net-zero transitions. Could you tell us how do you see also the role of the government, you know, in really supporting early stage startups and innovation with the right policy frameworks, et cetera, and also incentive basically.

Melissa Lott: Yes. So when it comes to policy frameworks, when it comes to specifically the supply chain discussions we're having. So I'll focus in on mining because you asked for the earliest stages of it. But first is within government and within the policies they are creating for the net-zero targets or the energy transition targets. It's saying, okay, what has to happen upstream and then how am I streamlining processes to actually be able to get stuff built and tried out, de-risk different things? So we talk about de-risking the build out of a new nuclear power plant. So what about de-risking the build out of a mining facility or the integration of an innovative technology that could solve an existing and known problem?

There's another role for government, though, that I think was picked up. Both of you have kind of said different pieces of this, which is around how do we incentivize community engagement? There's interesting data in the research that may sound counterintuitive ,that I talk about with decision makers all the time. Which is, these things move at the speed of trust. When you don't have trust, actually the projects move more slowly. That's interesting. And what that tells us is that community engagement is not a check the box exercise that happens – I'm trying to use your analogy of downstream – at the very least. Actually, it has to happen at the very beginning and that speeds up the whole process.

And so within that, within regulations, how do you do de-risk it from that standpoint as well? Because there's technological de-risking, bringing in these innovative technologies, but there's also the risk of a lack of community acceptance. And so those things have to be structured into the policies.

But step one within this is is acknowledging, as government and policymakers and regulators who want to see a net-zero transition happen, the people they represent want to see that transition happen. Acknowledging what that means upstream and that we have to move. There's not enough metal in the world that can be recycled today to do what we're talking about. That's a drop in the bucket. We need to go so much further.

Barinder Rasode: I just wanted, I just wanted to comment on that and I wholeheartedly agree with your comments. I think part of the challenge, though, is, is when policymakers put on stringent requirements that then halt progress, right. Either for mining companies or for innovators. And I so thinking having more conversations on what the balance is.

I don't think there's any doubt that everybody that is part of this conversation wants to do the right thing. Nobody disagrees on that. How we get there doesn't need to be as much of a challenge if we can have really open, honest conversations and make sure what we're saying is win-win. Why don't we say nobody's the bad guy here, right? That's a very novel concept.

And I think that's what we need to be talking about now when we talk about mining remediation, waste remediation, or as we're entering this new world of AI where we're not sure if things, let's just say we're going to find a way to win-win. And there is, and it's not an imbalance because we've been told what to do, but that we can't do under what we're mandated to do by our shareholders and our board, right? It's very, it's a big disconnect there still.

Melissa Lott: Yeah. Let me make just one quick comment on this policy. It's interesting hearing your comments about where mining companies can come together and collaborate, and how quickly those things can move. In government and in policymaking and in regulation setting, and a lot of the conversations I'm a part of, there's a baseline of education understanding that is still not quite there in a lot of spaces. And that's where, at least as an academic, I can step in and say, you know what? I make no money, regardless of what decision you make. Trusted resource. And a lot of the work that I do is actually, it's education. Because they've been focused on the many, many, many other things that are on their plate going on around the world. And, you know, net-zero targets, mining as a part of supply chains, it's extremely important. We spend a lot of our lives on it. They have so many other things on their dockets.

So how do you actually educate and bring up that, that conversation to the understanding of it can be a win win? And here's what we know from lessons we've learned in the past that can now be applied. Case studies and sharing of that is another big piece of where I spend my time.

Sadaf Hosseini: Melissa, can I actually ask a question there from you? Do you have an example of good practice that you have seen somewhere that you would like to share with us?

Melissa Lott: Sure. So I will say there's good practices. Actually, I'm going to look to my northern colleague over here, where a couple of them were saying communities are going to be at the table from day one and they're not just going to have a voice, but they're going have an equity stake in this. So there's a lot of different versions of this saying, but when we talk about the energy transition, it goes through native lands is one statement that is there. When you look at the resources that are needed, there's no way that indigenous communities are not a part of this.

And so, with those conversations, again, not a check the box at the end of a conversation, but bringing in at the beginning and saying you have an equity stake in this. And we're going to figure out ways for you to finance it, given all the complicated things that are in our past histories around this, so that you don't just have a voice and a vote at the table at day one, but you have it from day one through the life of whatever that project is.

Those things, we don't talk about instilling trust in projects. Huge. Absolutely huge. So we're not seeing this all around the world. Otherwise, I think we'd have a different conversation. But we are starting to see this actually incentivize projects as they move forward.

Barinder Rasode: And we can do that because we are immediately going to be generating revenue from the metals that are connected. And create revenue that then can be shared with industry, the community and the innovation and other innovators who will partner with us. So looking at sustainability from a win-win, right? Barstool three legs, right. Social, economic and environmental have to be equal. If one is off by even half an inch, it topples.

And so I think we've put a lot of burden on either industry or communities have felt left behind and governments are under immense pressure because the public also doesn't understand what GDP is or what the value of creating wealth for communities is, right?

So, I think that the work you do is really valuable. And I am proud of being from up north just because, you know, even our government in our province has been very supportive of the work that we're doing. And that is very important.

Melissa Lott: And I'll say just one last piece on this. You talk about the opportunities that come from these projects pretty much right away. Within governments, we can often default to how do we minimize the risk of the impact of something? But the questions of, not just how we maximize opportunities, but who gets those opportunities, is so important. And it comes out in all the dynamics and project development that we see come after it.

And so that's another thing to bring in that question, the conversations as we develop policies. And the most successful structures I've seen address both. Yes, we want to mitigate risks. We want to bring those down. But we also have to really talk about who's had the opportunities in the past, who will get them in the future, and how that all balances out.

Sadaf Hosseini: Great, great discussion. So what I hear here is all about how we can bring the right stakeholders from the beginning into the conversations and really think through more holistically, rather than maybe one stakeholder for one stakeholder benefits.

I think we talked a lot about de-risking from the government perspective or the composition of risk. We also talked about the need for capital and, and investment. You know, for the early stages. So that is where I would love to again come back to you, Vivek, with that, with your hat of prospect innovation. What is your message to investors, let's say, or capital providers, in terms of the bets that they need to put on early stage innovations to really support them in in this space moving forward?

Vivek Salgaocar: Sure, I think it's actually quite simple in the sense that it's one of the biggest opportunities out there that nobody is looking at. So why would you then not want to look at it when you know there's going to be such little competition? Right.

And so I say that semi-facetiously, but actually that's pretty much how it how it is. When you look at startups that are, that have relevant applications to mining, you very, very quickly lose a lot of the investor community because they just don't understand either the problem set or the technology or both. Right. And so what's interesting is that it's not some novel technologies that are needed to solve those problems. These are technologies that already exist, that have been deployed in other industries for a long, long time. And so in terms of de-risking, it's actually already de-risked to a large extent because they've already been deployed. It just in a in a slightly different use case. Right?

So, yes, of course there is risk. It is, you know, when you're making an investment, of course there is risk, there is no kind of sure shot way of of seeing that investment multiply. But if you're looking at where your chances are going to be higher, I see this as one of, you know, one of the most exciting places. Obviously, I'm biased, but it's also as a result of having seen a lot of the investments that we have made do extremely well.

And and that, too, in an environment when, as she just shared, you know, it's it's been very, very difficult to raise funds. It's been very, very difficult to have upticks in valuation over the last couple of years because of what's happening around the world. And despite that, we've seen companies that are in mining, that are in hardware, that have been in this environment, that have raised big rounds of capital, just because what they're doing is is actually changing, you know, a specific part of an industry or doing things in a way where there's an obvious path to profitability and revenue, which is which is something that is that is quite rare at the early stage.

And we've seen a lot of early stage companies that we've been a part of from their, you know, from their very, very beginning actually get to commercialization very fast. Because oftentimes, you know, people think that if it's hardware it's going to take a lot longer, it's going to be a lot more capital intensive. By and large, yes, that is correct. That doesn't mean that there's no opportunity there, right. And I think what we have seen – and this is just speaking practically firsthand, you know, from what we've done, not just, you know, something theoretical – is that you find all sorts of solutions from all sorts of places in the world that can actually be pulled in and then apply it.

So, the message to the investor community would be, I'm not saying you suddenly change your focus and then look in mining because it's, you know, it's, it seems to be an exciting place, which I think it is. But you should also look at mining as part of whatever it is, you know, because oftentimes you have kind of generalist funds that look at hardware, or they look at climate, they look at decarbonization, et cetera. Very few actually understand mining. And so unfortunately, what we see is that a lot of very, very good technologies that have been developed by extremely, you know, exciting entrepreneurs just have such a tough time raising money.

And what that does is a couple of things, right? As an entrepreneur, as a technologist, you want to develop the technology, you want to develop the business, you don't want to have to go around and fundraise because that takes away time from actually being productive.

So if you're able to kind of shorten that time and have that faster, the solutions will also get, you know, they'll get to commercialization much, much faster. And you'll see this, this, this all sort of, you know, excitement grow.

The reason why we started Prospect Innovation is because we saw that there was no ecosystem for early stage technology in mining anywhere in the world other than within, say, a few mining companies internally. That that's very, very different from having it go across across industries. And that's why creating this ecosystem actually helps because you get perspective from very, very, you know, from different fields, from different individuals, from different parts of the world, which ultimately helps us with this, you know, with these challenges. And in terms of bubbling up, really the best of the best in terms of in terms of these, these startups.

The last thing I will say is that, yes, you know, when you talk about sustainable mining and if you want to talk about, you know, sustainability of the environment, et cetera, what you cannot forget to focus on is the sustainability of the business, right? If you don't have a sustainable business model, it doesn't matter what stories you're trying to tell, you're not going to have the money to do it, uou're going to die very, very quickly, right. So you have to have, you mentioned the three pillars. You have to have all of those. And you can't think that necessarily you're going to have one at the cost of another. They all have to be good. And the best companies do all of them very, very well.

And again, the good news is that there's many of them out there. They just need more and more people to look at them and more and more people to invest in them. And we've been fortunate enough to be able to do that and see the returns as a result of it.

Sadaf Hosseini: That's inspiring because that is why we did our collaboration actually for, to really first of all, like, let's see what's out there, what type of innovations are out there and technologies and really look at the highest quality out out there as well.

I think maybe the other question I have for you, because of what Barinder actually was mentioning, in terms of the balance between patient capital, as well as the return on investment, as well as the impact at the heart of what the innovators want to do. What's your perspective on that one? How, as an investor, when you look at all those on on one plate, how would you approach it?

Vivek Salgaocar: So, it's a little bit of a cop-out answer in that you have to do all of them, right? And I think, you know, in terms of the quick wins, you need them because that also kind of fuels everything after that. But given the insights that we have, you know, from being in the industry, we also know the types of solutions that perhaps might take a little bit longer. But once they do materialize, we will have tremendous results, right?

So, whether you want to call it kind of a hockey stick or a j-curve, or whatever it is, you know, it takes time. But ultimately, we do believe that the, the returns actually do compensate for that for that length of time.

However, ultimately, we look at it from a very capitalistic sort of commercial point of view. And so you do have you know, you do need to have a combination of things. Some things we can see will get commercialized sooner and will lead to exits and greater financial outcomes in a shorter period of time. Those are as important as the ones that are going to take longer.

The ones that are going to take longer, perhaps even harder to fund. But I think those are the ones that actually have the potential to make the biggest change. And so if you're actually creating such a big change, chances are the, the financial impact is going to be commensurate to that, right. And so you have to look at both. But I think you have to look at both in parallel. You can't look at one or the other.

There's definitely a role for governments to play here in terms of de-risking that or taking first loss in terms of capital provisions, et cetera. That's something that is, is, is great. But I can't speak for. As an investor, we look to see how we can kind of combine all the different moving parts because if you're able to get non-diluted funding from a government, or first loss capital from the governmen,t or cheap debt, for instance, from the government, that definitely helps. But it can't just be, you're getting it because you tell a good story. It has to be because you have a good model, right?

And so all of that has to happen and all of that has to work together. It's not easy, but it's not impossible either. And I mean, investing in general is not easy, right? I mean, no, no, no profession is easy. If it were, then we would be, we'd all be doing that. And so, yes, it takes work, but I think the rewards are definitely there if you put in the work.

Sadaf Hosseini: Very nice. Barinder, I would love to give you a moment to give any feedback or reflection on this. Specifically, what is your worries to the investors of this world?

Barinder Rasode: I think the world is changing so rapidly. Science and technology is changing so rapidly. And so I'm going to use a simple analogy. Very critical service, excellent trades people, who are candlemakers. Right? We we cannot live without them. And they were greatly valued. So I'm not putting candlemakers down. But can you imagine as a, as an inventor, going to a candlemaker to raise money for the light bulb? How many levels is their disconnect, right? A, they're protecting how they're doing things because it's working. B, they wouldn't be able to comprehend – well, that's never going to happen. And so there's that, you've touched on that whole knowledge base disconnect, right?

So, how do you get access to the right industry partners or the funds that will then take the time to actually, like we talked about this on the way over, right, where people aren't really understanding what you're saying if it's complicated. So how do you. So maybe that's what government does, as a panel of experts that, so maybe it's this arm's length thing. Maybe it's not just about the money so that you don't have the candlemaker being vulnerable and scared that now they're going to be put out of business because of this idea, but it's something we need.

And I think then the other piece of what you said is, for sure, you have a responsibility. You have a responsibility to either your family or your shareholders. And you have to de-risk this from the standpoint of who you're investing in.

So again, back to what we've been talking a lot about today, more partnerships. Maybe, maybe industry funds. Maybe, you know, like you said, you're, you're an impartial voice that's brought in to to talk about things. And just getting rid of all of the stigma and all of the challenges of not having access. Access is really big for startups, and there are some fabulous startups out there. So like I said, everybody agrees, we just don't know how to get there.

Melissa Lott: Well, I just want to make one comment about why I'm so encouraged by all this. Where we are in this conversation. I'm encouraged and think we can move even faster than we have. And you've already talked about the numbers, about how we're moving, but not fast enough and all that. Because this conversation is now on the table, because there is an increasing acceptance that it needs to be on the table, that it's not just something that we can make disappear with one innovation or breakthrough, outside of, no actually, we're going to need this. How do we do it better? How do we move quickly?

And so once things are on the table and part of the consciousness, those conversations can go much more quickly where it's, as opposed to just not being part of the conversation in the first place. And so the overall literacy in this conversation has increased. It needs to go a lot higher, a lot faster within the investment community. I see the disconnect, you're talking about whether or not bridges between people working in different spaces. And so, those realizations, those ah-has, oh wait this makes a ton of sense, does not happen as often as it could. Those bridges are too rickety or don't exist. But within government and policy, we are having the conversations, which is encouraging.

Sadaf Hosseini: Excellent. That's a great bridge actually, to maybe the announcement that we have to say because of, you know, raising awareness around that and hopefully bringing the right of stakeholders to create that enabling ecosystem that we need for a, let's say, net-zero future. Vivek, you're launching the new Sustainable Mining Challenge: Mining the Unmined – I love the name – today and looking for more startups in this space. You said that we are going to be more focused.

Can you just, maybe quickly because we are coming to the end of the conversation. What type of startups are you hoping to apply for this? Because we have an audience and hopefully there are a lot of startups listening to this and how you're going to support them.

Vivek Salgaocar: Sure. So, I think Melissa actually mentioned it a little bit earlier, there's this paradigm shift where we don't, we call it Mining the Unmined, which is essentially mining secondary sources, right? So, we're not, we're trying to reduce the amount of primary mining because it's much, A, it's more cost effective, B it actually has a much lower impact on the, on the environment in a situation where ore body quality is, is rapidly declining.

So whether that's, you know, quote unquote, waste, we see waste as actually a raw material. So looking at ways in which you can actually use what's already been, you know, whether it's through tailing ponds, whether it's overburden, whether it's, you know, urban mining and sort of recycling. We're looking at ways in which we can actually repurpose those and use those as raw materials to actually then extract the materials that we need tomorrow.

What we've seen is that oftentimes what was considered to be subpar or, you know, below a certain threshold and therefore unusable in the past is actually, with the power of technology, now very much in play. And that's exactly what it is that we're looking at.

So in terms of types of technologies, again, it's fairly broad. Tersa Earth, for instance, is one of them that could very much fit in that. But if it's within any of those buckets, and I'm, I'm intentionally not being very specific because we want to attract people from actually, you know, all spheres and all industries that actually are able to look at this, because, again, the technologies do exist. They just have to be applied to, you know, to a mining use case.

So super excited. Very, very happy with the first challenge where we have 13 very, very, very, very promising top innovators and hopefully we'll have the same for, you know, for the next where the quality continues to be as good if not improves. And yeah, Mining the Unmined. So we're looking at secondary sources that we can extract the materials that we need for our future.

Sadaf Hosseini: Very good. Well, I'm super excited about it. I would love to thank all three of you for this contribution to this conversation. I'm not the mining expert, but I learnt a lot for sure, and I'm sure our audience as well.

So, I would like to thank you, thank to our audience for being here, for this important conversation about innovation and decarbonization. While we still have a long way to go, we have seen today that by accelerating technology and fostering collaboration, we can move closer to a net zero future.

So to wrap this up, I'm excited to leave you with the launch video of the UpLink Sustainable Mining Challenge called Mining the UnMined. You can apply now on the uplink website and you have time till 6th November. So we are waiting for you. Thanks again for tuning in and we'll see you very soon.